The Biblical Worldview

More On The Departed (dead) saints
Dr. Allen Barber
February 22, 2012

(A follow-up discussion with the brother about the status of departed saints)"

[Just now had time to read your email. Don't see anything new in this that we have not already discussed. Don't really understand why this is so important to you in the first place. As we discussed, the dead disembodied saints are somewhere in the presence of the Lord and these saints will be with the Lord when he returns.

Can't imagine Paul telling the Thessalonians who didn't understand the status of their departed loved ones (They were not ignorant of the posttrib day of the Lord, but concerned about a letter and a teaching by two apostates that the resurrection had already passed - I cover this in my book) that they would not come back with the Lord when he returned. I mean I cannot fathom Paul telling the Thessalonians the Lord will return with the angels, but as far as your departed loved ones who knew  the Lord, Well, they won't be coming back with Him and furthermore, I have no clue where they are. That sounds ridiculous and it is because it is not true. I think Paul would take you to task on this since he knew he would be in the company of the resurrected dead (he knew his death was imminent). You say Hades is the place of the departed saints and in the Lord's  presence. Well, is He going to leave them there when He returns? By the way show me a Scripture that PROVES the departed saints are in Hades.  The Greek term hades (Hebrew Sheol) in the New Testament is usually in reference to the departed unbelieving dead. Obviously Sheol in  the Old Testament's concept of eternity was considered the general abode of all the dead even though in the Lord's account of the Rich Man and Lazarus, there was a VAST separation between the dead saints and the unbelieving dead - they were not in the same place.  

Your argument, even though you use a lot of church fathers info and Scriptures that in my opinion prove nothing of the status of the departed disembodied saints because the very moment Jesus starts His dissent or return to earth on the posttrib day of the Lord, the First Resurrection occurs mandating the spirits of the dead saints are also immediately impacted by that event.  Arguing that the Lord returns only with the angels in order to disapprove bringing the saints with Him is a circular argument because as I mentioned in my last email, there is a reason the angels accompany the Lord for they will be carrying out his judgments on the Day of the Lord. Angels administer the Bowls of wrath on the day of the Lord for that is their mission on that day. We see the same thing in the Parable of the Tares in Matthew 13:36-42 which takes place at the final end-time harvest. The only thing you prove is that the angels accompany the Lord when He returns, but for a specific purpose unrelated to the status of departed disembodied saints.  Anyway, we do not base our New Testament theology on the gospels but rather on the letters for the letters convey more of Church doctrine than the gospels. Doesn't mean the gospels are not true theology or doctrine, but they are incomplete revelation of New Covenant doctrine without the apostolic letters.

When Paul said (and I read you case against this verse, which is not a strong case) in I Thessalonians 4:14 (and notice he begins the verse by saying "we believe" not just himself, but the Church body he was given the responsibility to teach) ...God in Jesus will bring with Him those who sleep in Him. The Greek primary root word "ago" of "axei" (bring) is "to lead a procession" and by implication "to bring".  Well, in the context of I Thessalonians 4:13-18, the procession is not the angels but the dead departed saints who are about to receive in a moment of time, their glorified bodies of spiritual flesh - bone and flesh, but no blood. Why, no blood, because the sin nature lodges in the blood of fallen mankind. Our new bodies will not need blood anymore. Paul said emphatically this is what he pisteuomen, which literally means "to faith it", that is, he by faith believed this to be fact that Jesus would bring with Him the departed disembodied saints to receive a new body.  We can debate, discuss, and argue over the semantics but when all is said and done, I Thessalonians 4:14 says and means what it says - Jesus is going to bring a whole host of dead disembodied saints with Him to receive their glorified bodies that will be like the one the resurrected Lord has - able to step into eternity and back into time at will and vice-versa. This is the blessed hope of the Church not a pretrib rapture.

The thing about those under the altar at the 5th Seal is misunderstood my many.  The Greek hupokato from the roots hupo and kato means "down under or a subordinate position to a higher law, principle or person." The Greek thusiasgteeriou from two root constructions means "to sacrifice by blood or given to slaughter."  Taken together in the context of Revelation 6:9-11, they are the martyrs that submitted to death (probably beheading) because they refused to stop bearing testimony to the Word of God during the days of the tribulation when it is going to be extremely difficult to do without losing your head. The fact they they ask for vengeance on the earth dwellers  - those who slaughtered them implies they are no longer on the earth but in the presence of the Lord and supported by the fact they have a conversation with the Lord who tells them to rest (same as sleep for departed saints) a while longer until their fellow servants and brethren were killed in the same way as they were (beheading). Now obviously, they are not in the grave with their dead bodies, but are spiritually alive in the presence of the Lord wherever that is, but it has to be somewhere in the vicinity of the throne for that is where Jesus is currently. It is also illogical to assume these dead departed saints won't return with the Lord to the place of their departure - earth, for that is the Lord's final destination on the Day of the Lord. Therefore, "altar" is not to be taken literally as an altar such as was used in the tabernacle and temple, but it is symbolic of the ultimate sacrifice - the giving of one's physical life in service of another - in this case the Lord Jesus. We have already established the 144,000 in Revelation 14 is a representative figure (I believe the overcomers) and not a literal fixed number as in Revelation 7.  These chaste virgins (not defiled by false doctrine) follow the Lord wherever He goes and He is coming back to earth to reign on  the earth as its rightful monarch and potentate.  In that sense He brings them with Him or they accompany Him - either way they are with Him.

God bless you.

Allen