Where Are The Departed Saints
Dr. Allen Barber
February 17, 2012
The following is a dialogue between myself and another brother in Christ who is the Chief of Oncology for a hospital in another state concerning the status of departed saints and if they return with the Lord at his Second Coming. His position is the Bible nowhere says the Lord brings the saints with Him when he returns. Of course we disagree in Christian love for I have much respect for him as a serious seeker of truth. I share this article because others may have the same questions (He quotes several of the Early Church Fathers in support of his position, however, to save space, I listed only one for they all basically take the same position as Clement of Rome):
Clement of Rome AD. 96 Chap. L.— "...All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, 'Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves.'
This is not a good proof for the after life of the departed saints for it does not deal specifically with what is exactly raised up out of the graves - soul or spirit or body. The abode of the departed dead and the state of resurrected saints was not fully developed until the New Covenant. We don't learn of the First Resurrection and the lessor and more inferior second resurrection until the New Covenant writings particularly the letters. In the gospels Jesus mentioned the general resurrection, but He did not mention the specificity of the First Resurrection. The Old Covenant understanding of the entities of departed ones at the resurrection is better understood in view of the New Covenant revelation (I Corinthians 15:35-49) where Paul is obviously making reference to the physical body. He also makes a distinction between terrestrial and celestial clothing of humans and angels as well as animal and inanimate. Since human bodies as a faculty of humankind have no life or consciousness of their own without a soul and spirit, the dead and decomposed bodies of departed saints must undergo a transformation at the resurrection, that is, receive spiritual flesh or glorified bodies possessing spiritual eternal life. That necessitates a reunion of spirit, soul and body at the First Resurrection. The difference between all departed humans whether saved or lost is they are disembodied but in different locales. The story (not a parable) of the rich man and Lazarus proves this premise - they both were disembodied but had consciousness and memory which implied a spirit and a soul. The spirit is not the soul and vice versa.
When God made Adam (never said he created Adam - why? Because Adam's body was made of the dust of the earth which God had created not made) he breathed into his nostrils the breaths (plural in the Hebrew) of life. Why plural? Because the Spirit of God breathed into Adam created both his human spirit and soul. The spirit of man (little "s") is not the same as the Holy Spirit and it is not equal to God who is Spirit. God is a spiritual force and an atomic force if you will. As you know from medical science, the human body is made up of molecules and atoms and in that sense resembles partially the image of God. However, it is the Spirit that more resembles the image of God. Adam was not perfectly made in the image of God until God placed His Spirit in him. By the way, my first undergraduate major was pre-med or pre-dental as both took the same core courses (I thought I wanted to be a dentist), so I have an normal interest in medical science.
The spirit of man is enveloped in the soul of man, but distinct. The soul is man's personality or "self life" which allows him to function as a living human being. Genesis says Adam was made a living soul, which meant he had a mind, a will and emotions to function on a human level. Before the fall, Adam's spirit was highly developed and in control of the soul (the soul possesses much power, which is what Satan was after; he knew he could not deal directly with Adam's spirit for it was related to God, that is, had the ability to commune and fellowship with God on a spiritual level; The soul of itself could not do that for it was made to communicate with man's environment and other humans. Only the spirit of man can commune with God. However, sin cut that off and Adam's spirit was immersed in his soul, that is, the soul gained ascendency over the spirit. This has been Satan's tactic since the Garden of Eden - to capture the souls of man and rule over them through the fallen nature. Actually the second Adam, the Lord Jesus in His cross and resurrection took back what Adam lost in the fall.
Anyway and I may have labored the point more than needed; Clement of Rome's statement about the resurrection and graves does not make clear the status of the departed saints after death. In fact, his quotation about "entering into thy secret chambers until the indignation passes" (KJV) is a reference to physical Israel during the Great Tribulation and has nothing to do with the departed status. In the Bible man is considered a trilogy (I Thess. 5:23) and notice Paul uses the word "whole" in relation to the individual parts. The meaning is the body is considered a vital part of the whole composition of man, but man is not complete without any of the parts. The primary root meaning of "whole" from the Greek is that which is the perfection of perfection. God created man to be spirit, soul and body and is incomplete without all the parts. The body whether living or dead is not the life of the human being - the spirit and soul are. However their functions are different. The body which is our clothing is not the real us. The real us are the spirit and soul, which are living entities of themselves. God clothed us with a body fit for planet earth. It won't work on the moon or mars for it was not made for those environments without special equipment.
When Clement says "the departed saints possess a place among the godly" that solves nothing - doesn't shed any light on the location or status of the departed. The word "raise" in Hebrew is a primitive root word meaning to raise something up from a horizontal or lying position and in the context certainly means the dead listless body. The idea of raising the body of the departed saints implies a rejoining of their spirits to the dead body which creates the new soul or glorified state (without a fallen nature). Now this all implies the spirits of departed loved ones are temporarily disembodied and not a complete entity, but it does not mean they are deficient in consciousness, memory, and substance. It is only when we come to the New Covenant that we are told the departed spirits of the saints are in the presence of the Lord. In I Corinthians 5:3,8, Paul treats his spirit as more representing who he was than just his physical presence. He clearly says to be absent from the human body in death is to be present in spirit with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8).
When Paul died, he didn't lose his spiritual identity or person-hood. No, it was still in tact. Now the presence of the Lord does not mean being in touching distance of Him for He is eternal and omnipresent - everywhere at one time. The Kingdom of Heaven simply means the sphere of righteousness which God is. Wherever the departed saints are they are aware of the Lord's Spirit or presence. My wife may be in the far corners of our spacious house (God's blessing not bragging), but I am aware of her presence. No one can say dogmatically that he knows the exact sphere of the departed saints nor can he know exactly where the third heaven is - where God's present throne is, but by faith we accept that it exists. Paul said what he saw in a vision about the third heaven could not be spoken in human words. We can argue all day and parse words about the meaning of Sheol and Hades and where they are located, but in the end we do not know the precise location. Therefore, I take comfort and accept by faith that the spirits of departed saints (their real life) are in the presence of the Lord who is eternal and omnipresent.
Watchman Nee has the best understanding of the Spirit, Soul and Body that I have read. His book, "The Spiritual Man", is in my opinion the revelation of the Holy Spirit given to a dear saint whose spiritual life I do not come close and not worthy to untie his shoes. He paid the price to walk daily in the Holy Spirit and was never influenced by denominations or religious organizations. In fact, when he spoke to denominational groups as he often did (England is one example) they didn't understand most of what he said because he was speaking out of revelation of the Spirit not some intellectual thought. I have read about 40 of his books and each time I re-read them I am simply amazed at his depth of spiritual knowledge.
If the spirits of the departed saints are with or in the presence of the Lord, then obviously at the First Resurrection involving the saints only, the spirits will be rejoined to a resurrected glorified body. That certainly implies a coming with the Lord. The 144,000 virgins in Revelation 14 (not the same as the 144,000 in chapter 7 ) are around the throne in the heavenly Zion for they WERE (PAST TENSE) redeemed from among men. They have not yet gone through resurrection but are awaiting it. The key phrase is they follow the Lamb (Jesus) who is standing on heavenly Mount Zion wherever He goes. Well, at the posttrib First Resurrection, Jesus descends to the air above the earth and gathers the saints unto Himself while the angels are administering the bowls of wrath upon the Antichrist and his Kingdom and those who took the Mark of the Beast. This is the wrath of God. This is also why the Lord is accompanied by the angels when he returns. They administer His wrath. Nowhere in Scripture does it say the Lord personally executes Judgement or wrath upon humankind rather His angels do his bidding. The only time Jesus personally judges someone is the Antichrist and False Prophet, even the Angels deal with Satan and bind him in the bottomless pit. The Holy Angels come with the Lord to execute His judgment and wrath while He is fellow-shipping with the saints in the air above the earth for this is the Bride's wedding ceremony.
There is no use replying to each statement of the church fathers for what I have written above could be applied to each quote. It is the revelation of what I have been given to understand the existence of departed saints waiting the First Resurrection.
May the Lord bless you and give you spiritual understanding of all things.
Allen